20 FEBRUARY 1940
Dr. Manilal arrived at 10.00 a.m.; he made pranam to Sri Aurobindo and asked about the injured leg, for which he had advised "hanging" from the knee to help the flexion.
SRI AUROBINDO: The leg is hanging very well.
DR. MANILAL: I have brought some Ayurvedic medicine for you. I got it from a Madrasi lady who is an automatic writer and has great bhakti. She keeps your photo and Ramana Maharshi's and goes into trances. In her planchette sittings, some Rishi comes and dictates to her. I asked her about the defective flexion of your knee and she gave me this medicine, which is quite harmless—it is white mustard and raktapillai. She says your knee will be all right in six days. The treatment is prescribed by a Rishi.
SRI AUROBINDO: Very kind of the Rishi.
DR. MANILAL: I got a prescription for myself too. It is rice-water and flour of dal (lentil) to be poured on the head. It will cure headache and blood-pressure.
After the sponging of Sri Aurobindo had begun, Dr. Manilal started the talk.
DR. MANILAL: The late Gaekwad wanted to have translations of English books into Gujarati. The word "jailor" was rendered karagrihadhikari, the "superintendent of jail" was rendered karagrihadyaksha and so on. Sometimes it is very difficult to understand what is meant. They have to put English equivalents in brackets.
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PURANI: But in former times people easily understood such words as amatya, Suba, etc.
DR. MANILAL: Now Suba is more easily understood. But when they write Mahasabha for Congress, I take it to be Hindu Mahasabha.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why? You can then take Congress as the American Congress. (Laughter) Even in England it was not always easy. The word "telegraph", for instance, was not at all easy at the beginning. By constant use words become familiar. So there is no reason why one shouldn't have one's own language.
DR. MANILAL: At present Urdu words are much favoured.
SRI AUROBINDO: When we have Sanskrit, why should we leave it and go to Urdu?
DR. MANILAL: What about a word like "collector" Isn't the Urdu equivalent —jilladhisha — preferable?
SRI AUROBINDO: The English word "collector" is itself far better.
DR. MANILAL (after a while): I find The Life Divine very difficult, Sir.
SRI AUROBINDO: What is the difficulty? The language or the thought?
DR. MANILAL: It is the language that I can't follow. Can't it be made easier?
SRI AUROBINDO (smiling and shaking his head) : Ask the Grace of God to aid you. (Laughter)
PURANI: The language is not the difficulty, and it can't be made any easier. It is the thought that is difficult to follow. Some people find it very easy.
SRI AUROBINDO: Sisir Mitra is one. He found the book very clear and remarked that after reading it there could be no questions left.
PURANI: Quite so. One may not accept the conclusions but one has to admit that all arguments and questions have ben answered.
SRI AUROBINDO (to Manilal): You have to wait for some translations into Gujarati then.
DR. MANILAL: Translations are even more difficult -if Purani,who is a translator, doesn't mind my saying so.
PURANI: No. I don't mind. I know.
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DR. MANILAL: I understood Purani's original writings better than his translations.
SRI AUROBINDO: Have you read Kant? (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir!
PURANI: After Kant you would realise how easy The Life Divine is.
NIRODBARAN: Don't worry, Dr. Manilal, I am in the same boat as you.
PURANI: Many doctors will be in it. .
CHAMPAKLAL: But Rajangam finds The Life Divine easy. He says that one shouldn't read anything else except this book. He is in ecstasies over it.
PURANI: I also find it very clear.
SRI AUROBINDO: One should have a little knowledge of philosophy. What I have tried to give in the book is a metaphysical foundation of Yoga and a new view of life. Any book of philosophy has to be metaphysical. Even then Haridas Chaudhuri writes that some people may consider it dogmatic—lacking in enough argumentative dialectics.
DR. MANILAL: But Vivekananda's books on Yoga are very easy to follow.
SRI AUROBINDO: His books are made from speeches and he speaks of what everybody ought to know.
DR. MANILAL: He is a philosopher also.
SRI AUROBINDO: Philosophers may not accept him as one.
NIRODBARAN: He doesn't go into the principles of things and the various arguments pro and con.
SRI AUROBINDO: No. (To Dr. Manilal) As for The Life Divine, it is not the language but the thought-substance that may be difficult to follow. If I had written about the Congress in the same language, then you would have understood. (Laughter)
PURANI: One has to go on reading and reading. The first reading may be very dry and difficult.
DR. MANILAL: Yes. That was also the case with midwifery. When I first read the book not a single word entered my head. Afterwards, it became my greatest favourite.
SRI AUROBINDO: So The Life Divine may take the place of your midwifery. .
NIRODBARAN: Another difficulty besides understanding is that of keeping it all in the memory.
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SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different matter. It depends on the mind's capacity to retain things. V will understand and remember everything, I suppose.
NIRODBARAN: And also add much of his own.
SATYENDRA: A commentator can do that.
SRI AUROBINDO: I read many commentaries on Shankara but not a single one agreed with the other. Some were even contradictory in themselves.
DR. MANILAL: To go back to my medicine, will you try it?
NIRODBARAN: The time-limit of six days makes me all the more special of its efficacy. Why not first try on yourself the medicine prescribed for your own trouble?
SATYENDRA (who had come in after the medicine had been talked about): What has been prescribed for Dr. Manilal?
Dr. NIRODBARAN: Rice-water to be applied.
SATYENDRA: Applied where?
SRI AUROBINDO: On his head. Not for his hair! (Laughter) The medicine has been given by a Rishi through the planchette. It will cure Manilal's headache and blood-pressure.
DR. MANILAL: The lady who works the planchette is very devotional and one feels an atmosphere of peace at her place. After one asks questions, she gives the blessings of Panduranga. That means that one should stop.
SRI AUROBINDO: Did she bless you?
DR. MANILAL: Yes, Sir.
SRI AUROBINDO: After your question?
DR. MANILAL: Yes, Sir.
NIRODBARAN: You asked only one question?
DR. MANILAL: No; I asked two more, but they are personal.
NIRODBARAN: Ah! Let us hear them.
CHAMPAKLAL: Are they about some future fulfilment?
SRI AUROBINDO: He is keeping the interesting parts secret.
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir. There can be nothing secret from you. But if I speak of them I may lose faith.
CHAMPAKLAL: But does a prophecy's success depend on telling or not telling it? If it is to come true, it will do so in any case.
SRI AUROBINDO: He may lose the consolation of mind which comes from faith in the future.
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DR. MANILAL: You said last time about a disciple that when he spoke of his experiences to his Guru, the experiences stopped and the Guru said, "The Devil has caught hold of you."
SRI AUROBINDO: "I"? I don't remember. (After a while) Yes, I remember now. It was about a Sannyasi in the Ramakrishna Mission.
DR. MANILAL: Lele also said something like that to you. And you said you would then surrender to the Devil.
SRI AUROBINDO: That was a different matter. I didn't say that to him. I said it to myself: "You have handed me over to the Divine and if as a result of that the Devil catches hold of me, I will say that the Divine has sent the Devil and I will follow him."
By now the sponging was over and Sri Aurobindo was hanging his leg while sitting in a chair.
SRI AUROBINDO (To Dr. Manilal): You see, I have kept my promise. I said that as soon as The Life Divine was finished I would hang my leg.
DR. MANILAL: I am grateful for it, Sir. But it has taken a long time to finish.
SRI AUROBINDO: I didn't know myself that it would take so long.
DR. MANILAL: Can't a Yogi know whether a medicine proposed is right or not?
SRI AUROBINDO: He can, but will he try to do so?
DR. MANILAL: I already see more bending in the knee, Sir, by the very talk of the application.
SRI AUROBINDO: Not by the talk, but by your very contact with the lady, which I yogically came to know of. (Laughter)
SATYENDRA: Today is another great day according to astrology. Nothing happened on the 13th.
DR. MANILAL: Why is today a great day?
PURANI: You don't know? Jupiter and Venus have come very close together and that portends great events.
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DR. MANILAL: They are always close.
SATYENDRA: No, this is the first time they are so near each other.
SRI AUROBINDO: They are supposed to counteract the influences of Saturn and Mars which foreboded a great event.
SATYENDRA: Saturn and Mars came close to each other on the 13th, but nothing happened. Girdharlal says that it does not mean that the results will be immediate. They may happen long after.
SRI AUROBINDO: Something may have happened already. Some more Finns were probably killed. And this Altmark incident may be due to Saturn and Mars!
DR. MANILAL: The astrologers recommend various ceremonies to propitiate Saturn. This really just means propitiating themselves!
SRI AUROBINDO: If you propitiate Saturn now, in ten years Saturn will have forgotten all about it. How then results will come long after?
DR. MANILAL: But do these astrological signs mean anything? What do you think, Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: I never think. (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: What is your opinion then?:
SRI AUROBINDO: I have no opinion (Laughter) The signs may be indicative or effective. One has to find out the explanations according to one's own light.
DR. MANILAL: There are plenty of people who go about as astrologers just to rob people. They know practically nothing. I remember an astrologer who once came to my place to cast the horoscope of some baby. He was mainly after getting some money by saying he would have to propitiate graha (asterism) and that graha. But he didn't know that I was a hard master to deal with.
SRI AUROBINDO: He would have to propitiate this Saturn before coming to you. (Laughter)
PURANI: There was one astrologer of Gaekwad -
DR. MANILAL: Yes, he was a good man. He is dead.
SRI AUROBINDO: And this is a bad man. who is alive! (Laughter)
DR. RAO(who had come for the Darshan after five weeks of absence, a delay due to his usual trouble with the officials): These astrologers, Sir, are quite accurate about the past but they can't predict the future correctly. Many of my friends have had that experience.
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SRI AUROBINDO: I also had that experience with the Bhrigu Samhita people.
DR. MANILAL: One Bhrigu Samhita man came to Baroda and swindled a lot of people, and many became insolvent.
SRI AUROBINDO: How?
DR. MANILAL: People began to speculate heavily, relying on his forecasts and they lost a lot. Even some business people came to grief.
SRI AUROBINDO: Then they deserved it. Business people ought to have some sense.
DR. MANILAL: V told me that he began hearing all sorts of ragas after he started Yoga.
SRI AUROBINDO: Plenty of musicians hear ragas without doing Yoga.
NIRODBARAN: Dr. Manilal can have a shot with this Hanumant Rao who, he says, can cure simply by spreading his hands over the patient, but it will be difficult as he has no faith.
DR. MANILAL: But if he can cure me he will make a name.
SRI AUROBINDO: Become immortal. (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: People will say he has cured Manilal.
SRI AUROBINDO: Even Manilal! (After a while) Mother says Dutt looks very old and looks really like a story-teller. (Laughter)
EVENING
SRI AUROBINDO (soon after lying down in bed): I have seen at Darshan in the afternoon one remarkable man among the whole crowd: Buddhadev. (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: The product of an early marriage!
At this time only Dr. Becharlal, Dr. Manilal, Champaklal and Nirodbaran were present. In the morning we had already indicated to Sri Aurobindo the huge proportions in length and breadth of Buddhadev. That is why he knew his name now. At sponging time Satyendra again raised the topic.
SATYENDRA: Could you make out Buddhadev, Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: I cannot but remember him as the one remarkable man in the whole crowd.
NIRODBARAN: Superman!
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SRI AUROBINDO: Sample of the coming superman. (Laughter)
Somebody brought in the question of astrologers again and said that what Naik had learned about an astrologer regarding the Darshan was not correct. It first seemed some Bombay astrologer had said before the accident to Sri Aurobindo's right leg that there would be no Darshan in November 1938 the month of the accident. Now it was disclosed that the astrologers had said it only after the accident. The whole question was about the predictions by astrologers of future events. In most cases correctly.
SRI AUROBINDO: The Mother told me of a French astrologer whose prediction of the future came true. He predicted that a particular man would die of sea-water. He gave the date, even the time. His family kept him away from the sea, and on the day the accident was to take place they were dining together. Someone remarked ironically, "Where is the astrologer's prophecy now? The time he gave is passing away and there is no sea here!" Just at that moment the man was eating a sea-fish, got a bone stuck in his throat and at once died. The hour was exactly the one mentioned by the astrologer.
CHAMPAKLAL: It was fated that he should die.
SRI AUROBINDO: In this case it was.
DR. MANILAL: If one is destined to die one can't escape.
SRI AUROBINDO: There is not always a fixed destiny. Destiny can be changed. And there are many destinies. Astrologers go by a rule of thumb. So some cases come out right, most are wrong. In order to be correct, one must have the power of intuition.
DR. MANILAL: Cheiro made prophecies, some of which have come very true. For example, he said that Prince Edward, the son of George V, would lose the throne because of a woman. He also said that the Jews would be persecuted and driven out of every where.
SRI AUROBINDO: This prophecy about the Jews is very old one. According to it, when the Jews will be persecuted and driven out of every country, it will be a sign of the coming of the millennium. Usually, the prophecies that come true are the only ones noticed. Nobody notices most of those that don't come true.
(After a while) This time Nirod's intuition is proving to be correct, (To Nirodbaran who, puzzled, had begun looking at him)
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I mean your intuition about typhoid.¹ Today's case, you said, may be typhoid.
NIRODBARAN: Oh, I see.
SRI AUROBINDO: That kind of intuition is very convenient, as it doesn't refer to any particular case. It can be applied to any case.
DR. MANILAL: It seems Tagore has advised Gandhi to give up politics.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why? Gandhi could as well ask Tagore to give up poetry.
DR. MANILAL: And Gandhi has replied that life is impossible without politics. Perhaps because of the factions in the Congress, Tagore advised him like that.
Sri Aurobindo had finished walking and was sitting in his chair. Dr. Manilal slowly walked up and stood in front of him, evidently to ask something.
NIRODBARAN: Dr. Manilal's face is shining.
SRI AUROBINDO (looking at Dr. Manilal, who was smiling): Luminosity of revelation?
DR. MANILAL: I sat near Dr. Becharlal, Sir. He was ecstatic. So I asked him if he has had an experience. He said it was a simple feeling of Ananda. Perhaps I may have got something from him by breathing his air.
SATYENDRA: You get more by breathing his air than by breathing Sri Aurobindo's. (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: Among us all, Dr. Becharlal seems to have profited the most by staying here.
SRI AUROBINDO: I see. (After a pause, to Nirodbaran) What does Buddhadev say? Is he satisfied with the Ashram or does he find the people too small for him? (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: I don't know. I will ask him. (To Dr. Manilal, who was looking sideways at Sri Aurobindo) Do you know Buddhadev?
DR. MANILAL: Yes.
¹A few days back, in meditation, Nirodbaran had seen that all were puzzled about the diagnosis of an imaginary case. Then he heard Sri Aurobindo say, "Are you sure it is not typhoid?"
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SRI AUROBINDO: Who is he?
DR. MANILAL: Why, Sir, Bhagawan? (Laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: Well, Buddha has come for the Darshan.
DR. MANILAL (on being told about Buddhadev's size): Oh, I know now. We came here in the same compartment . He occupied the top berth just above me. I told him he had better take the lower one.
SRI AUROBINDO: Not safe for you?
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir. He is a professor of Mathematics.
NIRODBARAN: No, of Sanskrit.
SATYENDRA (to Sri Aurobindo): Did you recognise your old friend Charu Dutt, Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: I was looking for him, but he went away so hurriedly that I couldn't see him very well.
NIRODBARAN: He said he was feeling rather nervous, wondering what account he could give you of his deeds and misdeeds during the thirty years since he saw you last. (Laughter) All the same he had a good look at you from a distance and you also gave him a straight sharp glance, he says.
SRI AUROBINDO: I give a sharp glance to everybody who is not a known face.
PURANI: One of his reminiscences of you is that you signed your name in support of the Suddhi movement. They were taking down the names of people who favoured the movement and you gave yours.
SRI AUROBINDO: When and where?
PURANI: At Delhi.
SRI AUROBINDO: Delhi station?
PURANI: After the Surat Congress.
SRI AUROBINDO: Can't be. I don't think I went to Delhi after it. It must have been somebody else and he mistook him for me.
PURANI: You are supposed to have gone about places for propaganda.
SRI AUROBINDO: I never committed the crime of making propaganda in my life.
PURANI: Perhaps you were passing through Delhi station.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is conceivable. That is why I asked about Delhi station.
DR. MANILAL: You can take your bath now, Sir, It will be more pleasant for you.
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SRI AUROBINDO: Everything will come in its right time. (Laughter) Shanaih, shanaih, langhate girim. (Climbing the hills step by step.)
NIRODBARAN: My typhoid intuition seems to have failed.
SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): I see. How is that?
NIRODBARAN: That fellow came to see me today quite all right: no fever!
Bala of the Atelier had had continuous fever for three days. The doctors thought it could be anything, even typhoid—so he was not allowed to go for Darshan. The day after Darshan his fever was gone.
CHAMPAKLAL: So it was only to prevent him from going to Darshan that the fever came.
NIRODBARAN: Looks like it.
CHAMPAKLAL (to Sri Aurobindo): Is it a coincidence? Or are there forces which put such obstacles on the way? They say that forces put these obstacles.
DR. MANILAL: If a man is keen, he can put down all obstacles or come for Darshan in spite of the fever.
CHAMPAKLAL: Even if a man is keen, sometimes things happen which he can't prevent and he is overcome by them or can't fight against them.
SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on the case.
CHAMPAKLAL: This particular case, for example?
SRI AUROBINDO: I have not studied this case, so I don't know.
DR. MANILAL: But he must have been keen to come for the Darshan.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why did he want to come for the Darshan?
DR. MANILAL: As usual, it must be for the elevation of his soul, Sir.
SRI AUROBINDO: Are you sure? Did he tell you that? If he wanted to come for that "usual" reason, the fever came as an unusual factor. (Laughter)
PURANI: There are plenty of reasons why one wants Darshan.
DR. MANILAL (to Sri Aurobindo): How did you find this Darshan, Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: In what way?
DR. MANILAL: I mean, did you find any improvement?
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SRI AUROBINDO: Again, improvement
DR. MANILAL: Subjectively and objectively, compared to the last Darshan.
SRI AUROBINDO: Subjectively, shall I say, as per usual. (Laughter) Objectively, I saw a greater man than had ever come before. (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: Shall we send a telegram to Puranmal?
SRI AUROBINDO: What for?
DR. MANILAL: He said that when Supermind descended he was to be informed. It is also Puranmal who staggered Hukamchand by saying that he had given Rs. 30,000 to the Ashram. Hukamchand didn't dare to give anything.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why?
DR. MANILAL: Because he thought that if Puranmal gave so much he must either give more or nothing at all. He chose the latter course.
SRI AUROBINDO: I hear he has lost heavily.
CHAMPAKLAL: It is right punishment for him. Not only did he not give anything; he took away one loaf (Sri Aurobindo laughed.)
DR. MANILAL: How can it be a punishment? The Divine can't be vindictive.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why not?
DR. MANILAL: We know of the Divine as protective, kind and benevolent.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is Vishnu. There is also Shiva
DR. MANILAL: Shiva is Bholanath.¹
SRI AUROBINDO: He is also Rudra.²
DR. MANILAL: But he can't be vindictive to a Bhakta for such things.
SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on the mood the Divine is in.
NIRODBARAN (to Dr. Manilal): What do you mean by the expression "such things"? Go to Dilip. He will say, "Whether a man is a Bhakta or not can be judged only by his dealing with money. Money is the test. If you can't offer money to the Divine, your sincerity is not genuine."
1The Lord who forgives and forgets.
2 The Lord of violent force.
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CHAMPAKLAL: There are plenty of people who are Bhaktas, but when the money-question comes, their Bhakti disappears. (Sri Aurobindo was enjoying the talk.)
DR. MANILAL: If money is the test, then robbers also are Bhaktas. Some of them rob people and offer part of their plunder to their god. Is that Bhakti?
SRI AUROBINDO: Why not?
DR. MANILAL: How can it be. Sir? They get the money by robbing others and offer it as a bribe. Is that true Bhakti?
SRI AUROBINDO: What is true Bhakti? There is no true or false Bhakti. Bhakti is Bhakti. Commercial people rob others and give offerings to God. Is it not Bhakti?
DR. MANILAL: But somehow I can't accept it, Sir, that a robber or murderer who offers money obtained by doubtful means does that out of Bhakti.
SRI AUROBINDO: Is a robber worse than a conqueror? A conqueror does the same thing. Where is the difference? A robber too may be brave and noble. When Rama on the battlefield prayed to Durga for help, it was not out of Bhakti he did it. What you say is an ethical or moral point. It has nothing to do with spirituality. The question is whether one feels the Bhakti and, if he feels it, it is quite genuine.
DR. MANILAL: According to Jainism, Sir, (great laughter) only that is true Bhakti which has no motive in it and only an offering acquired in a pure or virtuous way is a real offering. The robber is neither motiveless nor is his money acquired in a virtuous way. He offers a small sum of money as a bribe to God.
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't understand the point about motive here. There are two kinds of Bhakti: Sahaituki and Ahaituki. Sahaituki Bhakti is that type which may have a motive but it does not mean that it is not Bhakti. Ahaituki is, of course, without motive or demand. If the Divine were to accept offerings only from virtuous people, it would be a hard outlook for the world. (Laughter) Your mention of bribe and small amount reminds me of X. He says that people simply thrust the money on him and he can't but accept it. After all, it is a small bribe, he says. I was reminded then of the maidservant's story. Have I told it to you?
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir.
SRI AUROBINDO: A maidservant got an illegitimate child. The mistress of the house was very angry and rebuked her severely for the
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baby. The maidservant replied, "But Madam it is such a small one." {Laughter)
EVENING
SATYENDRA (suddenly): Are you taking the same diet as before Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: No, why?
SATYENDRA: I thought that because you seemed to have more blood formerly.
NIRODBARAN: Why do you say so?
SATYENDRA: From the nails. They were more pink. (To Sri Aurobindo) Your diet lacks blood-forming substances.
SRI AUROBINDO: The change is good, then; for I used to feel giddy before; it may have been due to an excess blood.
NIRODBARAN: It may have been due to excess of correspondence. (Sri Aurobindo laughed)
SRI AUROBINDO: Very possibly.
DR. MANILAL: Or due to poetry-correction.
SRI AUROBINDO: On the contrary, giddiness comes when I can't write poetry; as soon as I start to write it, it disappears.
DR. MANILAL: No, Sir, I was talking about Nirodbaran's poetry.
SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, but he was not writing frequently. What are the blood-forming substances?
SATYENDRA: Dr. Manilal can tell you of them. Milk is one.
SRI AUROBINDO: I never take.
DR. MANILAL: I think that what you do take has blood forming elements—fruits and vegetables, etc.
SRI AUROBINDO: I was taking more stuff bnefore, of course -almond juice and other things.
DR. MANILAL: Almond is not good, Sir,
SRI AUROBINDO: Why?
DR. MANILAL: It is very rich and hard to digest. It has plenty of protein and may cause an excess of uric acid.
PURANI: How?
SATYENDRA: Plenty of people take almond. The Westerners take any amount. I take it myself. I don't find it hard to digest.
DR. MANILAL: Because it is hard on the digestion wrestlers don't live long. As I said, it is very rich in protein -and in oil- like meat, and therefore harmful.
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SRI AUROBINDO: I don't agree.
PURANI: It depends on the person. Some people can digest it, others can't. Just like wine — some can drink any amount and live up to an old age.
SRI AUROBINDO: Rajen Mitra, the antiquarian, used to drink one bottle of brandy every day and yet he lived up to the age of eighty.
PURANI: Nolini was telling me a story of Charu Dutt's. It is about the Bomb Case. It seems that when you were arrested you wanted to confess to the Police. Subodh Mullick wired to Dutt about it, and Dutt wired back to you, "No theatricals, please!"
SRI AUROBINDO: What is that? I wanted to confess?
NIRODBARAN: No, the story was like this. I was also present. When you were arrested for the first time, you wanted to plead guilty.
SRI AUROBINDO: Arrested for what? For the Bomb Case? For heaven's sake let us make it clear first.
NIRODBARAN: He said it was for an article you had written in the Bande Mataram.
SRI AUROBINDO: It was not an article of mine for which I was arrested. It was a reprint from the Jugantar that was put in the Bande Mataram. Then?
NIRODBARAN: Then the Police didn't know who was the editor. You seem to have thought of pleading guilty. So Subodh Mullick sent a wire to Dutt.
SRI AUROBINDO: But where was Subodh Mullick at that time? I thought he was a detenue somewhere in the North. Then?
NIRODBARAN: He wired to Dutt that you were going to be theatrical.
SRI AUROBINDO: Theatrical? I had common sense enough not to plead guilty.
PURANI: And Dutt wired to you, "No theatricals, please!"
NIRODBARAN: No, not to Sri Aurobindo but to Mullick. Dutt himself first thought of going personally and persuading Sri Aurobindo but thought better of it and wired back and sent Barin with instructions.
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SRI AUROBINDO: Where was Dutt at that time? I thought he was in Bombay. It was the editorial staff of the Bande Mataram who arranged for the defence and gave evidence, which was rather made-up. (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN: Dutt said there was no evidence that you were the editor.
SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): There was, but it was erased by the knife.
NIRODBARAN: Some other stories about you occur in Dutt's Reminiscences. They are about cards and shooting
SRI AUROBINDO: What has he said?
NIRODBARAN: That you knew only one card game.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is really going too far.
NIRODBARAN: He taught you the game and at once you picked it up and beat them all because you read their hands!
SRI AUROBINDO: All I remember is that it was a game of bridge which I didn't know and I and Mrs. Dutt was thoroughly beaten by the opposite party. (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: And the shooting story?
NIRODBARAN: When Dutt and others were practising shooting. Sri Aurobindo came in and he was asked to try. He didn't know how to handle a gun. He was shown how and every time he fired he hit the target which was the tip of a matchstick.
SRI AUROBINDO: What was actually the case was that I and Barin went somewhere in Midnapur to practise shooting. No doubt, it is true that I didn't know how to handle a gun. (Laughter)
CHAMPAKLAL: But Anilbaran says you may not remember these incidents.
PURANI: That is not possible. When circumstances and events are described, one can bring them back to memory.
CHAMPAKLAL: Dutt says that at the Surat Congress Sri Aurobindo was protected by men with pistol.
DR. MANILAL: Was there any chance of personal injury, Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: Not that I know of. Only Satyen Bose was with me and he had a pistol. He said to me, "I have a pistol with me. Shall I shoot Suren Banerji?" I said, "For heaven's sake, don't do that." (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: But why did he want to shoot him?
SRI AUROBINDO: He must have got very excited. At any rate there was a pistol, there was Satyen and there was Banerji. (Laughter)
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NIRODBARAN: So why not shoot him?
Dr. Manilal: Is it true, Sir, that the British Government wanted to kidnap you and but you were guarded by men with pistols?
SRI AUROBINDO: May be.
DR. Manilal: I was also present at the Congress. I didn't know of any row. .
NIRODBARAN: You might have been one of the protectors of Sri Aurobindo, as our Dr. Savoor was.
SATYENDRA: I was a child at that time. I was standing far off at a safe distance in a volunteer's uniform and saw the procession going by.
DR. MANILAL: Champaklal applied that medicine. Sir. Nothing untoward has happened to him.
NIRODBARAN: There was also nothing untoward in him.
SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so.
NIRODBARAN: What about Purani?
PURANI: There is a little redness that is due to my cloth sticking to the paste. I wanted to pull it out and, as the hairs were also stuck in the paste, the skin got irritated a little.
SATYENDRA: I also applied it. It gets dry in no time.
CHAMPAKLAL: But one can't walk with it.
SRI AUROBINDO: The leg has to be immobile? It will then be more ankylosed. {Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: No, it can be applied at night and removed in the morning.
SRI AUROBINDO: But I don't see how a medicine meant to remove pain and swelling can produce flexion.
DR. MANILAL: Neither do I, Sir, but the lady said it would.
CHAMPAKLAL: Is it because of the Rishi that you have faith in it?
DR. MANILAL: Yes, but the Rishi is not only a Rishi; he gave it with the blessings of Panduranga who is Sri Krishna himself.
SRI AUROBINDO: To prove its effectiveness it must be tried on Purani first.
DR. MANILAL: Yes, we can apply it on his other knee.
NIRODBARAN: Buddhadev Bhattacharya was very happy at your remark.
SRI AUROBINDO: What remark?
NIRODBARAN: You said he was a remarkable man.
SRI AUROBINDO: I see. But why was he happy?
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NIRODBARAN: Just because you took his name.
DR. MANILAL: Couldn't you say, Sir, whether this lady who gave the medicine had something genuine in her and in her planchette.
SRI AUROBINDO: There may be something as she goes into trance, which means that she becomes a medium.
SATYENDRA: She does automatic writing - just like your book, Yogic Sadhan.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, in automatic writing one becomes a medium of some power. I don't think that whatever is written in that way is necessarily correct or right. At least I haven't seen it to be so.
CHAMPAKLAL: Sometimes other powers come in too in the name of somebody else.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they take up and come in others' roles. So it depends on the medium and the nature of the link one has established with the occult worlds. These worlds have their own laws. There are good and bad vital worlds and the results will depend on the connection one has made.
NIRODBARAN: All these powers come from the vital worlds?
SRI AUROBINDO: Of course.
NIRODBARAN: It would be good then if one establish connection with good vital worlds and cure cases.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why, one can cure by a connection with bad ones also.
SATYENDRA: It is not always safe for the mediums.
SRI AUROBINDO: No. Sometime they suffer very badly, either from a deterioration in health or some other trouble.
SATYENDRA: It is not easy, either, to open into those worlds
NIRODBARAN: It is easier than into the intuitive planes.
SRI AUROBINDO: Yes.
NIRODBARAN: How can one open then?
SRI AUROBINDO: By making one's vital pure. There is also an indifferent vital, as there is a good vital and a bad one.
SATYENDRA: Nirodbaran thinks he can open simply by asking.
NIRODBARAN: There are successful doctors with an impure vital.
SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different matter.
DR. MANILAL: When a person inwardly calls you, do you hear, Sir?
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SRI AUROBINDO: I may or may not. It depends on the nature and the circumstances of the case.
DR. MANILAL: When one says one hears your voice, do you know about it?
NIRODBARAN: I also want to know about that point. For instance, D said he heard your voice asking him to get up at four o'clock. Do you know about it?
SRI AUROBINDO: You mean whether I spoke?
DR. MANILAL: Do you know about these voices which they say are yours?
SATYENDRA: It may be from the Universal that the response comes and they hear your voice because they have faith in you.
SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. It depends on some opening in them, either in the mental, psychic or some larger vital part and they may get responses from these planes. Surely I am not going to bother about such things as D's rising up so early.
DR. MANILAL: The Mother or you don't hear the calls of people?
NIRODBARAN: Sri Aurobindo says that the Mother hears prayers from different parts of the world.
CHAMPAKLAL: The Mother narrated in the Store Room how she heard the call of people from Gujarat during a certain ceremony.
SRI AUROBINDO: The Mother hears. I may or may not. The Mother has developed this power from her early age and she used to hear even in her childhood.
DR. MANILAL: At what stage, say, of an illness does the response come?
SRI AUROBINDO: What do you mean?
DR. MANILAL: For instance, I call the Mother during an attack of illness and get no response. Does it mean that the disease has passed the stage when one can get a response?
NIRODBARAN: How can that be? In that case very few people would benefit.
SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on the person. A response can be had at any stage. People have been cured at critical stages, even on their death-bed. You know my maternal uncle Krishna Kumar Mitra's daughter was saved from her death-bed by simple prayer. The doctors had given up all hope after trying all remedies, even snake-poison. She was a typhoid case — the consciousness wouldn't
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come back. Then they prayed and soon a life returned. Without prayer she would not have been saved.
NIRODBARAN: Charu Dutt says that the Mother's face is not one of a human being but of a goddess though he couldn't look at it at pranam; but when he bowed down, he caressed her feet for some time; he was feeling so happy.
SRI AUROBINDO: If he couldn't look at Mother's face how could he say it was not the face of a human being?
NIRODBARAN: He must have looked while waiting for the pranam. He also said that he tried to call Mother's Presence before coming here but couldn't succeed her compassionate look.
CHAMPAKLAL: Today I told Anilbaran about those stories of Dutt and what you had said about them.
SRI AUROBINDO: I may not remember everything about the card incident and in one game I may have been able to tell the others' hands. But I can't forget the shooting incident was the first time I handled a gun.
NIRODBARAN: And what about aiming at the tip of the match stick?
SRI AUROBINDO: That is all fantasy
SATYENDRA: But do not fantasies become truths? It is in that way that God creates the world probably. Looking at hippopotamuses, zebras and all queer animals, I have to come to that view.
DR. MANILAL: Why should God have created the world? Was He unhappy?
SRI AUROBINDO: Does one create when one is unhappy? Or do you think like that because Nirodbaran creates poetry with such difficulty and struggle? (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: He creates for more
SRI AUROBINDO: That means he is full of joy?
DR. MANILAL: God is always full of joy.
SRI AUROBINDO: I am not talking God. I am talking of Nirodbaran. (Laughter)
SATYENDRA (to Manilal): What is your idea about creation?
DR. MANILAL: Creation is Swayambhu ( self-born) It is infinite and so has neither beginning nor end.
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SRI AUROBINDO: The hippopotamus is also Swayambhu?
DR. MANILAL: Why not, Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: That is not science. Evolution doesn't say that.
SATYENDRA (to Manilal) According to you, the world was and will be just as it is: everything, space and air compact with the Nigodha or Jiva from eternity? (Laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: Space is also Swayambhu then?
DR. MANILAL: Yes, Sir, the creation is infinite; it has no beginning, no end, like a tennis ball! (Laughter)
SRI AUROBINDO: And self-existent with Eliot and his hippopotamus existing from eternity? (Laughter)
SATYENDRA (to Dr. Manilal): If you don't believe God has created this world then God can't help you to get liberation. You have to rely absolutely on your Purushartha (self-effort).
SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so.
SATYENDRA (seeing Dr. Manilal sprinkling on his body the water in which Sri Aurobindo's feet had been washed): And why are you doing this?
DR. MANILAL: I believe in Grace. (Laughter) It is Jainism I am talking of. It says each one gets his liberation by his own effort. Even the Tirthankaras don't help.
SATYENDRA: It is better to foist all responsibility on God for all creation good and bad. Dr. Manilal objects to this because of the creation of Rakshasas.
SRI AUROBINDO: Why? Rakshasas can be interesting.
SATYENDRA: He objects too because of his own bad gall-bladder and heart.
SRI AUROBINDO: That also may be interesting to God. (Laughter) I was thinking that if the Tirthankaras don't help, of what use are they?
DR. MANILAL: They serve as examples.
SRI AUROBINDO: If one has to rely on one's own effort, examples won't matter. He will have to make an effort in any case.
DR. MANILAL: The beings that help are the Sashanadevas who worship the Tirthankaras.
SRI AUROBINDO: Then you can worship them; why the Tirthankaras? If the Devas worship the Tirthankaras, they shouldn't help either, because their ideal is also the attainment of a Tirthankara. Why should they help? Besides, it is a contradiction of the true law of
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Karma. If Karma brings its reward inevitably, then the help of God is unnecessary. If God helps and intervenes effectively and changes the result of action, the law of Karma is not true.
DR. MANILAL: Though Jainism believes in Purushartha one can pray for help.
SRI AUROBINDO: Ah, you speak of Purushartha as well as of help? The former means that you do everything by your own effort. How does help come in? It is illogical.
DR. MANILAL: According to Jainism, each one is alone and the Jain prays, "I come alone, I shall go alone." He practises this Ekatvam (aloneness) in order to get Vairagya (renunciation). But it is not outer Vairagya, like putting on the garb of a Sadhu or monk.
SRI AUROBINDO: But if one is alone and has to become free by his own effort, how do the Tirthankaras, Acharyas and such an infinite number of Siddhas crowded in Siddhasila, come in? Like all religions, it is fantastically illogical. Buddha also said the same thing but the religion said, "I can take refuge in Buddha."
PURANI: There is some similarity between Buddhism and Jainism. Buddha and Mahavira were contemporaries, though they don't seem to have met. Mahavira was born in Vaisali.
DR. MANILAL: In Jainism each soul is bound by ignorance and there are four Lokas represented by the Swastika.
SRI AUROBINDO: Hitler got the Swastika from there then? (Laughter)
SATYENDRA: What is the destiny of the individual according to Jainism?
DR. MANILAL: Mukti.
SATYENDRA: Does one become a Tirthankara?
DR. MANILAL: Nobody can become a Tirthankara. There are only twenty four Tirthankaras for each cycle and they go on cycle after cycle ad infinitum.
SRI AUROBINDO: Twenty-four times Infinity? Or Infinity times twenty-four? (Laughter)
NIRODBARAN (to DR. Manilal): I am staggered by your knowledge of Jainism and am surprised that you don't understand The Life Divine which is no patch on all these complexities. (Laughter)
DR. MANILAL: Really I don't understand The Life Divine. I have tried. What should I do. Sir?
SRI AUROBINDO: I don't know.
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NIRODBARAN: Sisir Mitra says X is also thinking of coming for Darshan.
DR. MANILAL: How do you decide. Sir, when to give permission for Darshan?
SRI AUROBINDO: It is the Mother who decides. She consults me only for important cases or when she thinks I should be consulted.
DR. MANILAL: Still you can give some idea. Sir, What aspects do you consider?
SRI AUROBINDO: No aspects.
DR. MANILAL: Or whether which person will benefit, which won't.
SRI AUROBINDO: No such consideration. Each case is judged individually. It depends on each case.
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